Christy Marx: ‘Emma Frost was created to be a slut’

Note added 4/21/11:
Some perceive this post as problematic in that it sounds as if being a ‘slut’ is a bad thing. This was the issue I was facing when I was writing the post. I didn’t want to defend Emma for NOT being a slut because it makes it sound as if a woman who likes sex is a bad thing. But the term is rooted in misogyny and does have negative connotations. Using that term for a woman is, obviously, misogynist, and Christy Marx was slut-shaming Emma. And by mainstream standards, Emma is not a ‘slut.’ I did mention in the 5th paragraph that a women who likes sex is NOT a bad thing, though; however, I probably should have made my intentions clearer in the 1st paragraph than in the 5th paragraph.

In “The Unauthorized X-Men: SF And Comic Writers on Mutants, Prejudice, And Adamantium,” Christy Marx argues “Emma Frost was created to be a slut” in her supposedly feminist chapter titled “Why I Didn’t Grow Up to Be Marvel Girl.” Here is the context of the quote:

“Then came the final straw of straws in the decline of the X-men. Not only did Jean Grey die — again — but Scott Summers dumped her for a slut. Let’s be honest about it now. Emma Frost was created to be a slut. She certainly has nothing to offer a girl reader, or any reader looking for something other than a fanboy fantasy.”
- Christy Marx

These types of accusations about our lovely White Queen aren’t new, but it is deplorable that a woman of high academic standard sees Emma Frost as nothing but a slut and has the nerve to make such a blanket statement in a collection of published essays.


As most of us know, Chris Claremont and John Byrne created Emma Frost, along with the Hellfire Club, in the 1980s, where she first appeared in “Uncanny X-Men” #129. Her first on-panel appearance characterized her as a formidable foe in a dominatrix-like outfit with a fluffy cape and spouting the words, “As you say, Shaw!”

She certainly proved she was as scary as she looked when she telepathically assaulted the X-Men and had them captured and caged by the next issue. Although Emma presented herself as a powerful woman who was confident in her sexuality during her first appearance, it seems she was mainly created to be a villain and not a slut.

The derogatory term “slut” is highly problematic, though, and it seems defending Emma Frost as not a “slut” is problematic as well. What exactly is a slut? A woman who enjoys sex? In this case, most women are sluts. Christy Marx does mention the affair of Scott and Emma; however, it was no more of wrong of Emma than it was of Scott, plus Emma had already admitted the affair was wrong in “Astonishing X-Men” #14. Still, it’s irrational to call a woman a slut, and it’s too bad the age-old term can’t be erased from everyone’s vocabulary.

There are misconceptions about Emma’s character, and it’s unfortunate people see her as just a pretty face with big boobs. Contrary to popular belief, she has slept with only 4 men in comic book canon: Sebastian Shaw, Namor, Iron Man and Scott Summers. But Christy Marx feels it’s okay to dub Emma as a slut, even though I have a hunch she judges the character based off her looks. It’s also irrational to call Emma a slut because of the way she dresses. As Emma said in “Classic X-Men” #34, it cheapens them and not her:

The way she dresses isn’t any more revealing compared to other superhero females, however. Emma’s sexual awareness is one of her greatest strengths. Unlike some characters, Emma knows what she wears is revealing, and she uses that to her advantage. It’s in character for her, whereas it would be bizarre to see Mary Jane running around in a thong and crazy push-up bra with double D’s. In her case, the creators are turning her into a sexual object. On the other hand, Emma has already chosen her outfits. However, this is not to say it’s wrong if Mary Jane chooses to wear clothing like Emma’s, but I do think it’s degrading when a character is portrayed like this.

Emma makes a great point about the way some men view women, but I would have to disagree about the part where she claims others can make sexism work for them. In her case, yes, wearing her outfits is an advantage to her, but there are other women out there oppressed by the patriarchy in such horrific ways, such as rape. So, no, viewing it through a larger scope, sexism is not that simple. On a side note, Ken Kneisel and Autist’s Corner have blogged about their differing views on Classic X-Men issue (thanks to nikbackm for the links).

Now, back to Christy Marx’s argument, Morrison’s characterization of Emma certainly didn’t lead to the decline of X-Men. In fact, Emma is now one of the most popular X-Men characters in the comic books right now, and she will even be a star character played by the beautiful January Jones in “X-Men: First Class.” I’ve been running this site for about 4 years and each year it gets harder to keep track of Emma Frost news.

Ironically, Christy Marx believes Emma has “nothing to offer a girl reader.” Pfft, I’m a female, and I know plenty of other females who love Emma Frost. Sure, she killed a horse (slightly joking!), but she is a strong, confident character with awesome dialogue and is quite identifiable for anyone. She is an educator, a businesswoman, an activist and an idealist. As I say on the front page of the website, we are aware of Emma’s moral ambiguity, self-absorbed nature and “sluttiness” – when, in fact, she’s just sexually aware. She isn’t perfect, and she isn’t the ideal female superhero, but this is exactly why we love her: she’s fucked up, and she’s Emma Frost.

So, in summation:

  • Emma Frost was first created to be a villain.
  • Emma Frost is not a slut, even though calling a woman a slut is not okay by itself. However, by mainstream societal standards, she is not one.
  • Emma Frost is totally aware of herself and what she wears.
  • Emma Frost, as a complex character, has a lot to offer to any reader.
  • Finally, Christy Marx is wrong about Emma Frost.

Comments

  • Niklas B

    Well, if you read the essay (or at least parts of it) by using the “Search inside this book” function, you can see that Christy Marx was apparently a Scott/Jean (or at least a Jean) fan. Had even followed their story for decades.

    Which makes the comment a little more understandable. There might even be bias involved!

  • airdreams

    good job!!! an essay that was full of preconception might be unworthy of serious consideration.
    i’ve read a book named “X-Men and Philosophy” and found that its authors only mentioned emma frost in passing…i was confused because she’s one of the most popular X-Men characters. then i understood: those essay essays were written…about 8 years ago? like this: “in the recent comics, his (magneto’s) separatist mutant island Genosha…” at the time, i guess quite a few people didn’t get emma as they do today. i think when some new corpuses about x-men are published (perhaps after XMFC being on?) , we can read some new and fair standpoints in books.

  • http://www.facebook.com/christospapadimitriou Χρήστος Παπαδημητρίου

    she is jealous of her! lol

  • Khino

    Is it April Fools again?
    I can’t believe someone like Christy wrote this. Seriously, in her website it’s made clear she loves writing and reading stories, I wouldn’t expect her to completely ignore Emma’s background and just label her a ‘slut’. If her essay was intended to have any sort of feminist vibe to it, then she failed for the mere use of this word. I agree with Niklas that there may be bias towards Jean involved, which for me only makes it worse, since she’s thrashing Emma for the sake of making Jean look better. Christy’s a professional, I think she could’ve at least tried to be impartial when writing her essay.

    I don’t know what I find more absurd on that statement: 1)her taking Jean’s death as a symbol/factor to the ‘decline of the X-Men’, 2)reducing Emma’s character to a ‘slut’ or 3)saying she has nothing to offer to anyone but pervs.

    1) Jean’s death has nothing to do with this supposed decline, like the author said herself it’s not the first time it happened and the X-Men were just fine during that period. And I find it kinda hypocritical that she considers Cyclops’ affair with Emma to be “the final straw of straws” when she doesn’t even mention Madelyne Priors’ name in her essay. You know, the first woman Scott was married to, who gave birth to his son and whom he dumped for Jean. And I used the “Search inside this book” option to confirm Maddie’s absence on Christy’s essay.

    2) You made great points against the ‘slut’ part of her statement, I just wanted to add that Emma was introduced as a leader of a secret society whose members were some of the most powerful people in the world. Before her Origins story last year (which I really try to consider as non-canon), Emma’s background was basically this:

    “When it came time for their father to choose a worthy heir to the family fortune, Emma was chosen but surprisingly refused, choosing to make her own way through life. She ascended rapidly to the upper echelon of the business world on the strength of her intelligence, drive and personal charm, as well as the secret use of her mental powers.”

    Then the HFC invited her to become a member and the rest is history. With the exception of her declining her father’s offer (which was added in the 2000s), this has always been Emma’s story. I really don’t see ‘slut’ written anywhere in this origin. Quite the opposite. Seriously, just forget everything about Emma’s appearance and tell me she isn’t a independent/modern woman. Let’s not forget she’s the only X-lady to have a consistent job.

    3) She’s the only true ex-villain to join (and stay with) the X-Men so far. Rogue was just misled/manipulated and Gambit has always been more of a jerk than downright evil. Other ex-villains always go back to their evil roots because it’s what defines them and by making them heroes they lose what made them popular in the first place. With Emma, it’s been so long since the White Queen that her “villainy” is more of a background than a defining trait. Yet, unlike Rogue, her sins can’t be completely forgotten because they were much worse. She’s good, but there’s still that shadow of her past haunting her. I find that interesting.

    Also, her path to redemption wasn’t rushed, with her first losing people very important to her (Hellions) and feeling remorse, then spending some time in a minor book (Gen X) and only then joining the main team. Her intentions now are obviously good, however it’s not surprising if some of her teammates still don’t trust her. She’s the villain-turned-hero done right, which is a rarity in comics.
    Being a true ex-villain (instead of a wathered down ex-villain), I think Emma has a lot to offer to readers. Not to mention the love triangle(s), her mentor/teacher role, etc.

    About the ‘fanboy fantasy’ thing, if you consider her most basic roles, duh of course she is a fanboy fantasy. Emma is a millionaire businesswoman, can read your mind and is a teacher who happens to wear very provocative outfit. C’mon, ‘hot teacher’ alone would be enough to put her there. I just don’t think it negates everything else Emma has to offer.

    Thanks for bringing this up and for your words, Aimee.

  • Khino

    wow, I didn’t realize I wrote so much. Sorry people.

    I’m back because I have some Emma news:
    -the site for the MMO based on Super hero squad is up again (heroup.com). Apparently Emma is a playable character.

    -X-men anime ep 03 is up, though with no subs yet. the chapter is very Emma and Armor-centered. Emma’s voice is awesome.

    • Aimee

      No worries. I appreciate the input!

      I will have to check out SHS again. Last time I played it, Emma was not listed as a playable character. It’s still in beta mode.

      Thanks for the info.

  • EvynnTyler

    Isn’t slut-shaming a decidedly anti-feminist sentiment anyway?
    Shame on Ms. Marx.

  • Matt

    Well, she WAS created to be a tits & ass character, so people like that are whining that she’s exploitative. Which she IS, she’s just also totally kickass.

  • Exoduscloak

    Marx is a troglodyte,

  • John

    That was the best (yet laughably ineffectual) rationalization/defense of a character whose costume is panties and thigh highs…and cape…I’ve read yet. You almost had me believing that you believe it. Bravo! And how is panties and thigh highs considered “dominatrix wear”? I mean, if she was covered in leather and had a whip and candle wax ready to go I might buy that. But Emma’s “outfit” is hardly that of the dominatrix. It’s more Victoria’s Secret in style and tone.

    Also, why all the hating on “sluts”? Sluts are people too. Just like a feminist. Ostracizing a group of fellow women with whom you don’t agree and as a result, further marginalizing yourselves in the process. All you chicks out there who are sluts, own that name! Give these feminist prudes what for!

    • http://www.theslowbullet.wordpress.com Jean-Paul

      The article here actually points out repeatedly that there is nothing wrong with what society deems (urgh) ‘slutty’, and it is in fact the Christy Marx article being criticised that takes part in slut-shaming.

      And yes, corsetry and thigh-high boots are considered ‘dominatrix wear’ when in the context of a character who exhibits ‘dominatrixy’ character traits. Is it because her outfit is white instead of black?

      ‘Feminist’ does not equal ‘prude’, incidentally. That’s a ludicrous misconception.

      Also, Emma Frost has been a strong character since her first appearance, and has spent the last twenty years being on the side of ‘good’, perhaps for longer than she was a villain. There is more to her character than just revealing outfits, and at least her outfits have a purpose other than just ‘here is my generic superhero outfit that adds nothing to me as a character’. Emma Frost really doesn’t need rationalised/defended.

      • Jordan

        I think “John” was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of the essay if it was meant to be a feminist view point. It can’t be denied that it is a HUGE hypocrisy to claim to be feminist but then bash another woman (fictional or not lol) for what she wears or how she acts. And criticising Marx’s essay isn’t taking part in slut shaming as it is the use of the term slut as an insult in the essay that most people are taking issue with so to say that is quite confusing…

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  • Vcarli12763

    I wouldn’t go so far as to say she ruined the comic, but cyclop’s abandonment of both jean grey and madeline pryor made him a much less likable and moral hero

  • http://www.facebook.com/kaisslim.saidi Kais Slim Saidi

    HAHAHAHAHAHA ! You make me laugh. I love how everyone uses the Morrison take on her as a way to glorify the character . Nuts to that I say … In fact here’s MY opinion on Emma Frost   http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d4n2bng 

    ” Morrison’s characterization of Emma certainly didn’t lead to the decline of X-Men.”

    Wanna  bet , honey ? http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=0#/d4syei0   http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=0#/d4tnxjm   http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=0#/d4txtfm   And that wasn’t Emma in Morrison’s run . That was something he cobbled up by removing the core characteristic of Miss Frost : Subtlety .

    Emma Frost was first created to be a villain.  Agreed & I loved how she was more of the business orientated villain rather . You know , the kind that is only interested in furthering his or her goals
    Emma Frost is not a slut, even though calling a woman a slut is not okay by itself. However, by mainstream societal standards, she is not one.  Emma ? Nope, & especially not the 80′s _90′s Emma . Emma diamond Fraud on the other hand is one .
    Emma Frost is totally aware of herself and what she wears. Nothing to add here
    Emma Frost, as a complex character, has a lot to offer to any reader.    Shame I didn’t see her in any book past Generation X 75 . Bear in mind that there’s a difference between the confident, dominant, manipulative and subtle  woman who knows how to play her cards right (Emma Frost ) and an overgrown bitchy 16 year old, who is just mean and snarky for the sake of it, or to hide her insecurities . The latter “version”  is a bitch and she’s happy with that, but that hardly means I’m wrong for disliking that . A bitch is a bitch, male or female.
    Finally, Christy Marx is wrong about Emma Frost.    Indeed but hardly about Emma Fraud .And I understand her for the whole  dumping Jean for a slut , at that point you can say that Emma’s character is dead ; Well she died since he started writing . so Miss Marx’s disgust here is hardly a shocking reaction . If anyone started making snarky comments before a grave, and before one of my loved ones’s to boot , I’d kill him / her .
    Of course Anyone is gonna bring the Maddie story , WEll… How Come Morrison NEVER referenced it ? Or Cable for that matter ? Oh that’s right  Because he KNEW JACK ABOUT X-MEN to begin with ! I mean CatBeast really ? And 2 good concepts do not make a good story .
    Scott’s treatment of Maddie in the X-Men just before Jean’s return had strained their relationship and broken the bond of trust between them. So when he ran out, I can understand her bitter feelings.

    For Scott, while he *did* walk out on his wife and child, it was for ONE ISSUE. Yes, he walked out on a “don’t come back” ultimatum, but in the SECOND ISSUE, he tries to call Maddie and talk to her, only to find out the number’s been disconnected. Now this being the 80s, there’s no Google or Facebook or texting to use to hunt her down. So he’s pretty much boned there.

    Scott made a *very* bad call during a highly emotional moment (going to NYC to see Jean w/o explaining to Maddy why he was leaving). Combine that with the “emotional distance” that 190-201 run of Uncanny suddenly put between them, and Maddy’s reaction makes sense.

    Another tidbit the Madelyne demonizers forget is that she was corrupted via dream-temptation by S’ym and N’astirh. In a dream, she picked the dark, and self-admittedly OUT OF CHARACTER action because “it was just a dream.” It was after that issue that she went crazy-dark, and wanted to sacrifice her own child.

    Also, during the Inferno plot arc, Sinister out-and-out admitted he’d been screwing with Scott’s head ever since he met Madelyne and he had a hand in helping drive them apart, when he realized Jean Grey was alive. Was that a bit of a retcon? Sure, you could argue that, but given that its the in-canon explanation, then both Scott & Maddy both are the victims in this.
    And one last thing; his relationship with actually evolved but a picture might speak more that a text   http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=48#/d4l751k

    You can go ahead  , Tell me I know nothing about Emma …

    PS: Gambit might be a jerk , but he is a great likeable jerk ! 

    • Khino

      I’m the only one who said anything about Madelyne and Gambit, so I feel part of your post is directed at me.

      ” I love how everyone uses the Morrison take on her as a way to glorify the character . Nuts to that I say … In fact here’s MY opinion on Emma Frost   http://devilkais.deviantart.co… ”

      I didn’t see Aimee or anyone here glorifying Morrison… She only referenced him when discussing the dominatrix thing. I personally didn’t like his version of hers (or the X-Men in general), but it’s undeniable the character has gotten many times more popular and influential thanks to him. She also became a pretty well-known character through the media and not just comics. Many good things happenned to her ever since, and it wouldn’t have been like that if it wasn’t for Morrison.

      “Wanna  bet , honey ? http://devilkais.deviantart.co…   http://devilkais.deviantart.co…   http://devilkais.deviantart.co…   And that wasn’t Emma in Morrison’s run . That was something he cobbled up by removing the core characteristic of Miss Frost : Subtlety .”

      I don’t think Morrison’s responsible for the decline. I think you’re giving him too much credit. There are way too many factors to consider here, so even if he was a factor, he’s just part of it. When Morrison came in, the X-Men had close to 40 years of stories. If a single writer, who wrote a single title (out of 3) of a 40 years old multi-media franchise has the power to destroy it in 3 years, then it means that franchise had no substance to begin with. And I do believe the X-Men have lots of substance.

      About that not being Emma in his run, inconsistencies happen all the time in comics. Too many writers handling the same characters… he simply viewed Emma in a different light than the others.
      I don’t think subtlety was THE core characteristic of hers. Certainly A core characteristic, but I think her being outspoken and assertive/pragmatic were stronger and more constant traits than subtlety. Traits that are still there.

      “Emma ? Nope, & especially not the 80′s _90′s Emma . Emma diamond Fraud on the other hand is one .”

      I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree here. Aimee and the others have already said why she isn’t a slut and how slut-shaming itself is wrong. The only slut the X-Men ever had was Stacy X, and that’s because she was a real sex worker, no pejorative terms.

      “Bear in mind that there’s a difference between the confident, dominant, manipulative and subtle  woman who knows how to play her cards right (Emma Frost ) and an overgrown bitchy 16 year old, who is just mean and snarky for the sake of it, or to hide her insecurities.”

      The overgrown bitchy 16 year old is exclusive to Morrison’s run. Since then Emma has taken big responsabilities, and her personality is written in line with that. She was always either snarky or witty. Also, remember that in Gen X she was interacting with people she never met before, so that’s why she was nice to them, nowadays she works with people who fought her during her Hellfire Club days. As she said to Banshee once, she doesn’t need to be actively inside people’s mind to hear what they’re thinking (some thoughts simply leak sometimes), so she knows that some people simply won’t trust her no matter how many times she fights on the front lines, is the one banking the X-Men, etc. Emma is unapologetic, she won’t start doing desperate moves to prove she’s changed like Rogue did years ago. Her icy demeanor is not her hiding insecurities, it’s just her telling people she doesn’t give a damn to what they think about her and won’t conform to their standards of good/evil.
      Sure some writers go beyond that and make her a bit too much snarky, but like I said before, many people write her nowadays, not all of them will get her right. During Gen X only one writer wrote her a time. It’s trading consistency for exposure. It happens with all of the big characters.

      “so Miss Marx’s disgust here is hardly a shocking reaction .”

      She has all the right to feel disgusted, but she was still writing for a book that’s somehow official (not licensed by Marvel, but with the opinions of several professionals). If this was the comment of someone who had just read Morrison’s run, I’d understand it – would still disagree, but would understand. Marx had time to think and write her essay. She was asked to give her opinion on what went wrong with the franchise for this supposed decline, and when people write something like this they usually try to be unbiased about it, she obviously didn’t even try. She described what were her reasons for leaving the franchise, not an objective opinion on the decline. Notice that she didn’t discuss the quality of Morrison’s or anyone’s work, she directed the blame on a character, and despite representing a feminist viewpoint was still able to slut shame. That was obviously not an objective opinion like one would expect from a book like this.

      I mean, I disagree with you on some points, but you’re providing discussion and have more of a professional view than her. Also, her saying Emma has nothing to offer to “any reader looking for something other than a fanboy fantasy” shows that she either isn’t all that familiar with the X-Men (only knows Emma from Morrison’s run) or is strongly biased, to a point that it affects her view on the franchise in general. If something similar to what happened to Bishop ever happened to another one of my favorites, it’s possible I would stop reading the books. It would ruin the story FOR ME. But I’d never have the presumption to go to forums or sites and proclaim that’s the reason (or a reason) the franchise sucks. And certainly not in a published essay.
      The X-Men are one of the most diverse franchises as far as characters go. Whatever happens to any character besides Wolverine won’t ruin the franchise. If you have a book with any combination of popular X-Men characters (Original five, most of the “All New, All different X-Men” and some others such as Emma, Rogue and Gambit), it’s likely the book will sell.  

      “Of course Anyone is gonna bring the Maddie story , WEll… How Come Morrison NEVER referenced it ?”

      You missed my point on the Madelyne comment. I meant that love triangles happen all the time in comics, and while people may be extremely vocal about them on the internet, the masses who buy the ACTION comics couldn’t really care less about their outcome. The audience of this kind of product isn’t reading the books for the love stories, these are plot devices to enrich the characters. Saying that Scott dumping Jean for Emma is a reason for the decline is stretching so much it almost made me laugh the first time I read it. For starters, he didn’t dump Jean for Emma, Jean had to give him a push from the afterlife to prevent an apocaliptic future. Even if he did, I doubt it would be a reason. Whedon’s Astonishing X-Men was one of the most successful books of the last decade, both critically and sales-wise, and had a big focus on the Emma/Scott relationship.

      I don’t know why Morrison didn’t reference Madelyne, but Christy wasn’t talking about him, neither was I. Don’t really get your point here. This is not about Morrison. I know he was influential on bringing Emma to the X-Men, but again, no one here is glorifying him.

      I also don’t know if you’re including me on the demonizers bit, but I didn’t say anything bad about Maddie. And I know the details of the story, that was just not my point.  

      “For Scott, while he *did* walk out on his wife and child, it was for ONE ISSUE. Yes, he walked out on a “don’t come back” ultimatum, but in the SECOND ISSUE, he tries to call Maddie and talk to her, only to find out the number’s been disconnected. Now this being the 80s, there’s no Google or Facebook or texting to use to hunt her down. So he’s pretty much boned there.”

      Just like real life. Marriages are destroyed in moments. He also felt guilty when Jean died on Morrison’s run, and since she was dead there was nothing he could do. It seems Scott has a pretty annoying habit of messing people up and trying to fix it when it’s too late.

      “Also, during the Inferno plot arc, Sinister out-and-out admitted he’d been screwing with Scott’s head ever since he met Madelyne and he had a hand in helping drive them apart, when he realized Jean Grey was alive. Was that a bit of a retcon? Sure, you could argue that, but given that its the in-canon explanation, then both Scott & Maddy both are the victims in this.”

      I don’t have a problem with this kind of retcon, because it makes sense and doesn’t contradict anything presented on the story at the time.

      But that’s the hipocrisy I pointed on Christy’s essay: she thinks Scott’s affair with Emma is a factor to the decline, but is okay with the outcome of Jean/Scott/Madelyne. It’s obvious that she’s taking Jean’s side, but how does she feel about Maddie? I mean, try to compare what happened to Jean after Emma/Scott to what happened to Maddie after Jean/Scott:
      Jean/Scott ruined Madelyne. Sure, nowadays, with Maddie being already considered a villain, it seems ok, but think how it was during the time for the people who were used to Madelyne/Scott. Marvel made every freaking detail work in favor of the Jean/Scott relationship: They made Sinister admit he was manipulating them, so that Jean (who’s a person who values ethics and family) and the X-Men would be ok with what Scott did; they made Madelyne go evil so that readers wouldn’t feel sympathetic for her, and Cyclops didn’t have to make a choice between who he wanted to be with and his family. Jean/Scott were painted as the perfect pairing, and for that Marvel destroyed everything Madelyne’s character was about at the time.

      Now Jean’s character wasn’t ruined for the sake of Emma/Scott. Yeah, in real life she would, but in comics death isn’t final, and Jean is just taking a break from the stories. And I know from one of your links what you think about her becoming the Phoenix, but whenever she’s back there’s no way Marvel will let her stay with it, you can’t have a character that powerful in a book that’s focused on a team. Unlike Madelyne, when Jean comes back she will be a main character again. Marvel didn’t demonize her so that Emma/Scott would look good. In fact, even though I’m not one who is a fan of relationships in comics, I really like how Emma and Scott were treated, as a couple, when they started dating. Marvel didn’t try to make excuses to make them acceptable to the X-Men (or even the audience): for a while, every time I opened a book it seemed there was someone different pointing their fingers at one of them, talking either about Jean or how Emma was obviously manipulating him. They took a lot of shit for being together, as they should. What they did was wrong, and Marvel didn’t try to hide or retcon that, like they did with Scott back then.

      Christy’s comment, IMHO, was simply petty. Nightcrawler and Bishop are two of my favorite characters, and they both are dead right now. While I know Kurt will be back, I’m sure Bishop won’t. At least not as a main character, and certainly not as a hero. Bishop was ruined, he was turned into a mass murderer out of nowhere. Kurt died a hero, which means that whenever he’s back it will be a big deal. That’s the difference between Madelyne and Jean.

      “PS: Gambit might be a jerk , but he is a great likeable jerk !”

      Haha, I agree. The point I was trying to make was that, during his whole existence in comics, Gambit was never shown as a villain, just someone with questionable morals. We discovered he used to be a villain after we were already used to see him with the good guys. We didn’t see him going through the proccess of change. Emma was first written to be a villain, in New mutants we started seeing some hints at her possibly having a heart, then she lost her Hellions and felt guilty, the X-Men helped her and she decided it was time to change. All of that in the spam of 14 years. It wasn’t rushed like so many things in comics.

      Also, I’d like to point out that there are people who find what you call “Emma Fraud” a great likeable jerk too!

      • http://www.facebook.com/kaisslim.saidi Kais Slim Saidi

        Oh JOY ! A reply !  Youhou hoohoohoohoohoohoo … (after jumping around …)
        WEll actually I wasn’t talking about you specifically . & I had to comment somewhere to show how I view the character ( Yes , I know everyone has a way to view some characters , here’s how I view some of my favourite villains :
        Apocalypse = Sysiphus + Shishio Makoto (Rurouni Kenshin) + Raoh (HNK) + Daffy Duck (especially in Duck Amuck.I can explain this one with an overall look on his background).
        Sinister = Dr Herbert West (Re-Animator) + Dr Faust + H. Lecter (Cox version)
        Sabretooth = Tyler Mane + H. Lecter (Hopkins version) + F. Krueger
        Stryfe = Souther (HNK) + William Shatner’s acting + Kefka Palazzo + Sephiroth + Annie Wilkes
        +  Caligula (with more murderous impulses than sexual ones)
        Emplate = Michael Myers + Sadako with alleged cannibalism
        Mystique = Basically Catherine Trammell in a blue skin with a hatred of mirrors
        Arcade = Chucky (Charles Lee Ray) + Agent 47
        Selene = Elisabeth Bathory + Super succubus

        Yep the interpretations are screwy but they make sense .. Once I go in detail , but we have another matter altogether at hand !

        “She also became a pretty well-known character through the media and not just comics. ”

        Well the name is known but the character on herself … Okay I’ll admit that the madhouse anime did get her right . But other than she’s just seen as the vapid vamp Morrison foisted & that’s just sad (I should make a top 20 comics misconception…) . Then again popularity is a harsh mistress ;)

        “During Gen X only one writer wrote her a time. It’s trading consistency for exposure”

        Actually , more than a writer wrote Gen X . Yeah Hama’s run was horrid even though he did okay with Synch, Jubes , Emma & Sean but once Faerber took over he brought the book on track . Lobdell & Wood have the best run for me in general. When I speak about subtlety (well yes I know she’s more than just that. Its that trait that attracted me to her in the first place) , it’s the fact that she can make people trust her for good reason while they don’t what card she’ll pull next . As for Wood , well let’s say that when she scared Monet after K.Oing the detective … That was frightening !

        “Whatever happens to any character besides Wolverine won’t ruin the franchise.”

        Personally , Logan went to shit after Greg Rucka’s run . Then again I’m the guy who liked Wolverine thanks to Jubilee & Sabretooth ! But  we’re not here for him so let’s move on …

        “Jean had to give him a push from the afterlife to prevent an apocaliptic future”

        Yeah & it read like a horrible fanfic.. No Seriously that was a lame as hell cop-out . In fact it’s an awful lot like a precursor to One More Day, Don’t you see the similarities ? And they can like Fraud all they want but NOTHING will make the grave even remotely acceptable . The “it’s the third time you bury her ?” comment … Huh yeah because where I’m from ,if someone ever joked about the dead person like that we’d beat the tar outta him.I know Morrison wants to make a “witty ” comment … but that is just tasteless .

        ” Whedon’s Astonishing X-Men was one of the most successful books of the
        last decade, both critically and sales-wise, and had a big focus on the
        Emma/Scott relationship. ”

        Well say hello to someone who dislikes it . In fact I hate the fact that it’s credited of making Cyclops cool . NUTS TO THAT ! I’ll take the “bland ” one who raised his son in a dystopian future ; married Jean & ended the rivalry with Logan (it got way too old & it  still is…) . Another thing is the focus on Kitty , Colossus back again & the fetus that came back … The best x-men book in that decade is THIS  http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d4r709a

        “they made Madelyne go evil so that readers wouldn’t feel sympathetic for her”

        Wow , they made a shit job then. Because I really feel sympathy for her, all along . Then again GOBLIN QUEEN = The female Cenobite + Queen Sindel + Helen Lyle , so it was a given . But that was a reason I liked 90′s Cyclops , he actually worked towards redemption & got his shit together. In fact there was a sense of guilt & it was made even more obvious when Stryfe revealed who he was  . ( One of these days I’ll team up these 2)

        “Marx had time to think and write her essay. She was asked to give her
        opinion on what went wrong with the franchise for this supposed decline,
        and when people write something like this they usually try to be
        unbiased about it, she obviously didn’t even try. She described what
        were her reasons for leaving the franchise, not an objective opinion on
        the decline. ”

        Point taken . I’d point that I disagree on Marx’s overall view on that reason for the decline , she should have been more objective… the decline came later with decimation+ Messiah BS . That was a headshot…

        she directed the blame on a character, and despite representing a feminist viewpoint was still able to slut shame

        You’re right . They shouldn’t do that except on these guys http://devilkais.deviantart.com/journal/Comics-characters-to-maul-amp-maim-list-275661594  Here anyone has the right to mutilate them !

        ” Marvel didn’t demonize her so that Emma/Scott would look good. ”

        Nope . they did & still do. Whenever we talk about Jean , we talk about the freaking Space Chicken http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d4q0fxb  . We mock how she always resurrects ( BULLSHIT !) And how Fraud made Dicklops such a great leader… Yeah sure & Tweety is an ostrich.  Joe Quesada, Grant Morrison, Chris Claremont, and Tom Breevort have all gone on record as saying Jean never should have been brought back in the 80s and should have stayed dead. (To hell with what they say ! That was my favourite iteration of the character !) That’s why they’re keeping her dead now as long as they possibly can. The problem is they’ve essentially turned Emma Frost into Jean Grey by giving her a persona and role that Jean Grey had. There have been times where you could photoshop Emma’s hair red and could not tell her apart from Jean.
         
        “Bishop was ruined, he was turned into a mass murderer out of nowhere ”

        I have a lot to say about the Bish . If anything defined him , it was his altruism, He saved everyone’s ass from AOA & stays seriously underrated . As for Kurt ,… I’ll get to him at some point…There ‘s way too much to say about good ol’ Crawler…

        ” Also, I’d like to point out that there are people who find what you call “Emma Fraud” a great likeable jerk too!”

        That’s their right . I never insulted anyone who liked that take … But an analogy of this might happen to her http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d4n0juj

        Phew ! That was long post ! Thanks again Khino ! It was fun to discuss with ya !

        • Khino

          “Phew ! That was long post ! Thanks again Khino ! It was fun to discuss with ya !”

          No problem. Always up for a good discussion : )

          Wow, so many villains from so many different media up there. It’s almost like you’re planning a crossover. You must really like villains, eh?

          “Well the name is known but the character on herself … ”

          But isn’t that true to pretty much every comic character? I’m of the opinion that, at least for fictional people, there is no bad exposure. Movies, games and cartoons have a bigger impact on how the general public sees them than comics do. And characters are really simplified when they go to any other media. People see Wolverine as the generic badass the movies show. Jean’s character is overshadowed by the Dark phoenix and the death/rebirth story. Heck, when the movies came out people were more interested in complaining about Storm’s hair than her lack of personality and authority among the X-Men.
          I have the impression the only x-characters who were portrayed (in any media) with the same depth they have in comics are Magneto and maybe Xavier.

          I think the general public sees her as the ice queen archetype, which is really simplifying the character a lot, but it works in the sense that, as far as Marvel goes, it’s unique to her. No other x-woman fits that. I mean, people complain that Gambit has been appearing little in cartoons and other things, but there’s no reason to put him in this kind of simplified media when you have Wolverine filling the bad-boy niche.
          She’s also undeniably well-known for her sex appeal… which bothered me a bit when the first images of First Class were leaked and people were all like “why is Emma Frost wearing more than lingerie!?”. But when the movie came out and she didn’t have much presence, I saw even more people complaining, so I’m ok with that “reputation”. It seems people realize that Emma’s sex appeal comes more from her atitude than whatever she’s wearing.

          “Okay I’ll admit that the madhouse anime did get her right .”

          That anime in general was really good. But back on the subject, from the 12 episodes, 4 of them focused heavily on Emma, which is more than anyone not called Armor got, and as much as Cyclops. She was more important to the plot of the show than Storm, and even Wolverine! I don’t think she would ever be considered for such an important role among the X-Men before Whedon.

          “Actually , more than a writer wrote Gen X .”

          I meant one writer at a time. For example, throughout this decade there were times she was appearing 5 books a month. During Generation X it was just once per month… I think (I don’t live in the US, the issues here in Brazil are different).

          “Personally , Logan went to shit after Greg Rucka’s run . Then again I’m
          the guy who liked Wolverine thanks to Jubilee & Sabretooth ! But 
          we’re not here for him so let’s move on …”

          He’s still a favorite for me, but it’s more for nostalgia reasons (first character I ever called “favorite”) than anything. His decline, for me, came when Marvel decided it was a good idea to have a character that is more of a “lone wolf” join so many teams it’s hard to keep track. But like you said, popularity is a harsh mistress, I’m not complaining!

          “Yeah & it read like a horrible fanfic..”
          Lol agreed – that’s just me being technical and saying Chrity is wrong in saying Scott left her for Emma.

          “Well say hello to someone who dislikes it . In fact I hate the fact that it’s credited of making Cyclops cool .”

          Uh… hello? ;)
          You’re not the first one I know who didn’t like it. It’s just hard nowadays in the comic industry to have critically acclaimed books do really well sales-wise. Most of the “good” books for the critics are really underground.
          I pointed his run because, if Jean and Scott  breaking up had any effect on the decline of the X-Men, one would think that a book that focused so much on Emma/Scott couldn’t possibly sell good.
          As for Cyclops being cool, I didn’t have a problem with that on Whedon’s run, because all the characters had their moments. My problem with Scott started on Fraction’s run, when everybody played a supportive role so he would look cool. I mean, when you have someone like Beast throwing tantrums against him, just so Scott can respond in the coolest way possible, you know you have a problem.

          “they made a shit job then. Because I really feel sympathy for her, all along .”

          I felt simpathy for her too, but she still turned evil. She crossed the line. From there on, she always appears as the crazy ex-wife who wants revenge. Marvel comics aren’t supposed to have an ending, so going evil is the worst destiny a main character can get (see Bishop). Now if the X-Men’s story were to end around the Inferno arc, it would’ve been an amazing closure for her.

          “the decline came later with decimation+ Messiah BS . That was a headshot…”

          Yeah, I think so too. The problem is that comics don’t sell by themselves anymore, you need to pick interest through videogames and movies first, then there’ll be people wanting to buy them. Ever since the X-Men moved to San Francisco (and later Utopia), they’ve been very different from their original direction, so different that it’s harder to promote them outside the comics. The reason the X-Men were such a bomb in the 90′s, IMHO, is that there was consistency throughout all their versions: you watched the cartoon, most of the characters there were part of the comics; you played a videogame, all the characters were on the comics at the time. Basically, if someone was a fan of the games, he likely could become a fan of the books. Nowadays… well, just look at first class: no matter how awesome the movie was, it’s so different from the comics that anyone who got interested by it will probably pick a comic, realize it’s not even close to what they saw and stop buying.

          “Nope . they did & still do. Whenever we talk about Jean , we talk about the freaking Space Chicken http://devilkais.deviantart.co…  .”

          Point taken. It must be horrible to be a fan of Jean and see her connected to the Phoenix all the time when she went through the whole 90′s with no connection to it. And also the sudden rise of clones and people connected to the Phoenix in general.
          But I still think Maddie got it worse. The current editorial doesn’t like Jean, but they’re not ruining her to the point future writers won’t be able to put her back with the X-Men. The Phoenix thing will drop once she’s back, because you can’t have someone that powerful on the team.

          “The problem is they’ve essentially turned Emma Frost into Jean Grey by
          giving her a persona and role that Jean Grey had. There have been times
          where you could photoshop Emma’s hair red and could not tell her apart
          from Jean.”

          I think the persona part is more directed at Fraction’s run, right? Like I said, I think the problem with his run was that everybody played second fiddle to Cyclops. Being his girlfriend, Emma usually got targeted the most.
          As for the role, I don’t think so. Emma has been the top telepath and main cerebro user, which when Jean was alive was Professor X’s role. She also plays the “untrusted member” part, which was Gambit’s on the 90′s and Wolverine’s waaay back.

          “I have a lot to say about the Bish . If anything defined him , it was
          his altruism, He saved everyone’s ass from AOA & stays seriously
          underrated .”

          He also saved everyone from Onslaught. He’s the last person I’d expect to do what he did. Altruism is really what used to define him. That’s where the “popularity is a harsh mistress” really comes in play: Marvel didn’t care for character consistency, they just needed a major character that wasn’t all that popular but whose betrayal woul still cause a big impact. At the end of the day, Marvel thought he was expendable :(

          ” As for Kurt ,… I’ll get to him at some point…There ‘s
          way too much to say about good ol’ Crawler…”

          The worst is seeing alternate versions of him appearing everywhere when Kurt himself wasn’t doing much before his death…

          “That’s their right . I never insulted anyone who liked that take …”

          You’re right, you didn’t. It’s just that the way you put it the first time made me think you were saying “no current Emma fan is a real fan”, or something to that effect. But it was just my projection, don’t mind me ;)

          Later!

          • http://www.facebook.com/kaisslim.saidi Kais Slim Saidi

            “Wow, so many villains from so many different media up there. It’s almost like you’re planning a crossover. You must really like villains, eh?”

            Actually I wanted to show how the x-men villains have numerous traits that reminded me of the characters I’ve listed in front of them . And yes I love villains , edgy characters & “goody 2 shoes” . To make a complex fiction you need that ! But I also want to remind fans who have wrongfully dismissed these guys as  “shallow” that they were wrong in that regard . I am also the one who doesn’t see Magneto as their greatest villain …shocking ? Well here’s my answer (& yep I drew all of these …)  http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=72#/d4e1dfr

            As for comparing Apocalypse to Daffy Duck, well here’s how I see it .
            There’s a 1000 ways to interpretate that masterpiece but there’s one crucial to get WHO Daffy is :Through the whole cartoon Daffy was given no opportunity to fight back against his unknown assailant BUT he still tries to roll with it as best he can. His goal was to give his beloved audience a good show so he gets his calm back & keeps acting (that little black duck is after all a consumate artist !).
            What does this have to do with Apocalypse ? Well everything actually ! When you look at it closely ,En Sabah Nur has never been given any alternative during his life but to believe in the survival of fittest & to go on with it . The “unknown assailant ” in his case are the celestials since he’s basically chained to their technology , he spent his infancy fighting ,; his adult years hated by everyone & has always been (though he never whined about it & would never admit it) a slave for all intents & purpose . Even when an alternative presents itself, it ends up going wrong (like when his father , the only person who showed him kindness died ). But like Daffy , he NEVER gives up as long as he can draw a breath.And another thing they forget, he sees himself as the caretaker of the world …

            Sinister now has maybe the greatest of all faustian origins . His origins comics NEED to be made into a movie or anime like the madhouse one . The scene where his wife dies was as much as a tear jerker as the one where Apocalypse lost his father, except where Apoc decided to move on & avenge his dad only to be reduced to slavery, Essex was thoroughly crushed … that scene really got me , much more than the Dark phoenix saga actually ….

            Sabretooth now .I see him as a far superior character than Wolverine when he’s at his best . As I said (& it’s an analogy that can’t be repeated enough …) , Victor Creed is the id of Hannibal Lecter. What makes Creed truly frightening is how he can easily push anyone’s buttons , and actually pit people against each other in a subtle way . This is what he does in the last good Wolverine story  “Return of the native”, Weapon X by Tieri, or the excellent mini-series “Death Hunt” , he’s one of the scariest comic book villains ever able to go from an amiable guy to the stuff nightmares are made of. Even when he’s pushed to the limit, he still manages to be fucking scary! There’s the “What If 87: Sabretooth screams in the night” where Jubilee manages to kill him… & trust me it’s not funny at all.When you see him burnt & rabid , the Freddy Kruger similarity is glaring, & the issue ends with a really sad way , Jubes might have trapped & offed him but the way you see how she sits traumatised by that, oh God… (Speaking of which I made no secret of my love for Jubilation Lee. She’s one of the most upbeat & optimistic characters in all comics . I know how they love to belittle her , but I’ll say this out loud : She is an extremely empathetic character & it’s nearly impossible not to feel for her (hence why reading or drawing her crying is a bit painful for me…).And she’s one of the few likeable ones that has not been exterminated !)

            “I mean, people complain that Gambit has been appearing little in cartoons and other things, but there’s no reason to put him in this kind of simplified media when you have Wolverine filling the bad-boy niche.”
             
            Not really…there’s a reason ! in all 24 issues of his solo series (it could have gone to 50) , Remy proved to be an extremely multi-layered & stupeduous anti-hero . So he’s not in the “bad boy” niche , he ‘s more of the ” nice devil ” type (not to mention , while Nightcrawler seems freaky but is an angel, Gambit is all around terrifying when you look at him a bit too closer… especially when said target is an enemy…

            “I have the impression the only x-characters who were portrayed (in any media) with the same depth they have in comics are Magneto and maybe Xavier. ”

            I may be the only one who finds that dichotomy tired … I like Magnus & all but,4 MOVIES It’s OVERKILL ! Hell give the others their share of the spotlight ! BTW the movie ‘s depiction of Mystique & Rogue was pretty rancid… just horrible…)

            “That anime in general was really good.”

            I agree, the chara design was pretty nice . Here’s another thing that might shock you, but when I saw Stryfe in the end credit , it did warm my heart ! I even thought ” Oh God ! If he’s ever used , Please give him Jeremy Irons as a voice actor or someone who can truly convey Stryfe’s power of chewing the scenery as if he were off his meds !” He reminds a lot of MacDowell’s Caligula , ah that crazy clone, I Looove that man !

            “Ever since the X-Men moved to San Francisco (and later Utopia), they’ve been very different from their original direction, so different that it’s harder to promote them outside the comics. ”

            Yes I even made a new promotion “The X-JERKS ! isolationists , racists & all around assholes in a world that mocks & hates them !”  Contrast with the ones from the cartoons and the 70′ -> 90′s comics that were heroic people who happened to be mutants . These ones were the true x-men for me …

            “I think the persona part is more directed at Fraction’s run, right?”

            I thought that run was dull & BOOOOOOOOOOOOring, am I the only one who thought that ?… But then again , I’ll make something perfectly clear when it comes to what passes as “Cyclops” these days .Some say he’s complex , but I just don’t see that … an a-hole is an a-hole & whoreverine ain’t better at all…

            “Marvel didn’t care for character consistency,”

            But I do ! Therefore , following my egomaniacal instincts , I decided to make my own canon following 2 basic rules
            -If it’s too awful or distateful, IT DIDN’t HAPPEN!
            - If it’s an unbearable status quo, make your own canon

            Therefore, I’ve tired you enough with my rambling so here’s to you::  my 10 parts Masterpiece about everything I find glorious in the x-men mythos !  ( i don’t know if I should color it.. you make the call)

            http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d4q6412
            http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d4qd72b
            http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d4qf6k4
            http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d4qi7j5
            http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d4qjadn
            http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d4qmais
            http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d4qn71t
            http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d4qqvsx
            http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d4qs873
            http://devilkais.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d4qsq6w

            (I don’t live in the US, the issues here in Brazil are different).

            Then I salute you from Tunisia Khino !

          • Khino

            “I am also the one who doesn’t see Magneto as their greatest villain
            …shocking ? Well here’s my answer (& yep I drew all of these …)”

            Magneto is only the best villain from X-Men (and really, Marvel) as far as sales and recognition goes. Other than that, it’s more about opinion. He’s not my fav either, and I find his “tragic past turned me in what I feared the most” story really overplayed.

            I wasn’t sure you were the one drawing those before, good job on making them! Also, nice top 20.

            “As for comparing Apocalypse to Daffy Duck, well here’s how I see it .”

            Good thing you explained this one, it’s really hard to understand the connection without looking  deeply into their stories.

            About Sabretooth:

            “When you see him burnt & rabid , the Freddy Kruger similarity is
            glaring, & the issue ends with a really sad way , Jubes might have
            trapped & offed him but the way you see how she sits traumatised by
            that, oh God…”

            You know, when I read you comparing the two the first time, that was the exact story I remembered. The psychological terror in that story, mostly felt at the end, in the Jubilee scene you mentioned, really took some hints from Freddy.

            “Not really…there’s a reason ! in all 24 issues of his solo series (it
            could have gone to 50) , Remy proved to be an extremely multi-layered
            & stupeduous anti-hero .”

            Oh, I don’t have a doubt about that, but that’s the comics we’re talking about. A lot of the things that make Gambit multi-layered are not directly connected to the X-Men’s story, so they won’t be brought up in a cartoon, movie or whatever. I mean, look at Wolverine: they had three movies focusing greatly on him, an origins movie and a leading role in a cartoon. Still, they didn’t achieve (nor was it their intention, I think) the depth of the character. Gambit depends a lot more on his depth than Wolverine does, and since he won’t get as much attention as Wolvie, it’s easier to just give him a cameo or a really small role.

            “I agree, the chara design was pretty nice . Here’s another thing that
            might shock you, but when I saw Stryfe in the end credit , it did warm
            my heart ! I even thought ‘Oh God ! If he’s ever used , Please give him
            Jeremy Irons as a voice actor or someone who can truly convey Stryfe’s power of chewing the scenery as if he were off his meds !’ ”

            Those credits were great and frustrating at the same time. Great for giving a nod to the fans, frustrating because I knew the villains there wouldn’t be used…

            “I thought that run was dull & BOOOOOOOOOOOOring, am I the only one who thought that ?… ”

            Nope, you’re definetly not the only one.

            “My 10 parts Masterpiece about everything I find glorious in the x-men
            mythos !  ( i don’t know if I should color it.. you make the call)”

            Well, I’m not really a good critic for visual art, and I know some artists would even be offended by what I have to say, but… Until they’re colored, black and white art doesn’t feel “complete” for me. But it’s your call, it’s good as it is, and there are so many details there I’m sure it’ll be a pain to color them.

            (also, really nice touch on connecting part 4 and 5 through Psylocke and Archangel. It would make a BIG poster if you put all of them together).

            “Then I salute you from Tunisia Khino !”

            Wow, pretty far from where I am! My salutes to you too,

  • Bruiseviolet27

     I beg to differ Christy Marx is RIGHT. I am a young woman and to me Emma Frost has nothing to offer, I wouldn’t want my nieces to look up to this stupid heartless whore. You are probably going to ask why I’d call her that and I will give you an answer. She is not a whore because of her past profession as a stripper (although it is pretty low), she is not a whore because of what she wears (women should be allowed to wear what they want without having to “ask for it” or being called “sluts”), she is a whore because she fucked her way to the top not once but TWICE. She was the battered girlfriend when it came to Sebastian Shaw. He beat her yet she stayed in that relationship not because she was afraid but for power and to become co-leader. And of course she came between a MARRIED COUPLE. And that made her heartless. Now Jean was wrong too for wanting to have sex with Wolverine so she is not that innocent but back to Emma, she took advantage of a vulnerable man who was married because let’s face it she has always been jealous of Jean Grey and wanted to be her/is fixated on her. Jean has always been genuinely loved whereas Emma hasn’t, she even dressed like Jean to seduce Scott Summers. She still makes herself look like Jean at times like in that issue where she tortures Scott with memories of Jean by making herself look like Phoenix and him like Wolverine (implying she preferred Logan). As for what she wears, she had more clothes on when she lead the Hellions than she does now. Now I am aware that other heroines wear very little clothing (Red Sonja wears a bikini armor yet she isn’t whoring around, Psylocke wears a one piece and so does Miss Marvel) but there are places and times you have to put your clothes on. She is a teacher she should dress like one. She is a horrible person because after Jean died she didn’t give a f### she approached Scott like a bitch in heat and told him they should lead the school together. In real life would this be someone you look up to? All I know is I wouldn’t call her a role model, I identify super heroines like Jean Grey, Wonder Woman, Storm, Catwoman, etc. with feminism but not this trash. I blame Morrison though he f###d this character beyond repair. I know I will get a lot of shit for this but at least I have the balls to say what everybody else wants to say but doesn’t because they will get bashed by Emo (purposely misspelled) Frost fans everywhere who come up with the most ridiculous ways to defend her even though she is wrong. I don’t hate Emma I hate what Morrison did to her. To me the real Emma Frost is dead, she died the instant Morrison came in and rewrote her.

    • Khino

      “I beg to differ Christy Marx is RIGHT. I am a young woman and to me Emma
      Frost has nothing to offer, I wouldn’t want my nieces to look up to
      this stupid heartless whore.”

      If you think of her as a stupid heartless whore of course she has something to offer. Characters are supposed to cause reactions on the readers, when you’re indiferent to a character is when they have nothing for you.

      “she is a whore because she f####d her way to the top not once but TWICE.”

      First of all, this is inaccurate because when she started to set her eyes on Cyclops he wasn’t the leader and was actually on the least favorable position he had ever been before. Second, you do know she is currently the one banking Utopia, right? Also, she was as much responsible for Utopia’s creation (with her influence during Dark Reign) as Cyclops. She was also the one who banked the school before the move to San Francisco. In comic books, writers tend to sell leadership as a magical gift very few possess, but in modern life the people who pay the bills are the ones who make the decisions. In real life Emma would have more say in Utopia’s direction than Cyclops would.

      About the Hellfire Club, there has been, like, 4 different stories on how she became the White Queen. The one you mentioned is just one of them (and it’s not rare for writers to make ex-villains/anti heroes victims on their past to “justify” their previous actions). If that’s the one version you want to believe in, that’s fine, but it contradicts a lot of things established during her existence as a character. The story told in the Emma Frost series is the one that contradicts the least what we have saw of the character.

      “(Red Sonja wears a bikini armor yet she isn’t whoring around, Psylocke wears a one piece and so does Miss Marvel) but there are places
      and times you have to put your clothes on. She is a teacher she should
      dress like one.”

      What do you mean with “whoring around”? Isn’t that kind of mentality the one being discussed as problematic here?

      I agree Emma should dress more as a teacher, but you just gave a couple of good examples as to why she doesn’t: Red Sonja – a barbarian warrior – and Psylocke – a ninja. It’s not what they wear, it’s their bodies. Male and female bodies are idealized in comics, but at least the male body is compatible with characters who are master martial artists and bodybuilders. The day the female characters who are supposed to be expert fighters are depicted as such, I’ll start having a problem with what Emma wears. If every female is shown to fit our society’s perception of “hot”, regardless of their characters, then how do artists make the characters who are supposed to be that stand out?

      “All I know is I wouldn’t call her a role model, I identify super
      heroines like Jean Grey, Wonder Woman, Storm, Catwoman, etc. with
      feminism but not this trash.”

      Emma is an antihero, she’s not supposed to be a role model, but she certainly has characteristics people can look up to. Wolverine is my favorite male hero and I don’t strive to become a womanizer or alcoholic.
      About feminism, I think its key factor, besides bringing equality between genders, is questioning how society views women and what it expects of them. Why does a woman need to be a role model to be tied with feminism? Some decades ago, society expected women to be perfect princesses, never standing up to a man. If any woman at that time wanted to fight for her rights, she wouldn’t be considered a role model either. Expectations may have changed, but it’s clear to me that society still tries to impose what a woman should be (men, too, but with us I think it’s a bit lighter, unless you’re homosexual, but that’s another discussion). The fact that Emma doesn’t strive to meet anyone’s expectations (except for the people who are important to her, of course) is exactly why I think she’s a great example of feminism in comics.
      Also, Storm is another favorite of mine, so it hurts me a bit to say this, but how can you consider her a role model if Emma “f#####g her way to the top” is what makes her a whore for you? How exactly did Storm become a queen? She married Black Panther when he was already a king, Emma started dating Cyclops when he was broken and trying to rebuild his life.
      Emma invested millions on Utopia, even after admitting she would prefer to go with Wolverine and be a teacher again. That’s not sleeping her way to the top.

      “I know I will get a lot of shit for this but at least I have the balls
      to say what everybody else wants to say but doesn’t because they will
      get bashed by Emo (purposely misspelled) Frost fans everywhere who come
      up with the most ridiculous ways to defend her even though she is wrong.”

      I noticed the people who frequent this site are normally very friendly, so you won’t get shit for having or expressing a different opinion. It’s not nice to insult a fanbase though, and frankly, it doesn’t take much courage to make insults on the internet, so I doubt any non Emma fan is afraid of being bashed by us.

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  • Bruiseviolet27

    Khino I respect your opinion and will not force you to dislike the White Queen…but I decided to give my two cents. Now when I said she has nothing to offer I stand by my word and let me be more specific on that. To me she has nothing to offer because I sure as hell wouldn’t adapt a superficial attitude like hers, I wouldn’t walk around thinking I was so high and mighty and that I was better than everybody else. I wouldn’t get involve with a man who is married, that is just fucking low and wrong, and like I said only a whore does that.

    Yes I am aware that there are different origins to this character and that particular origin I pointed out repulses me. And if I said she f###ed her way to the top with Cyclops was because she is now head mistress of Xavier’s institute is she not? I have not been keeping that much track, because everything went to shit once Grant Morrison got his hands on the X-men. What I mean by whoring around is again her getting involve with a married man. I don’t give a damn if you see it as problematic, that is not my mentality but an OPINION.

    As for Storm, she married a man she loved and I doubt he was with anyone at the time. That’s like saying Kate Middleton f##### her way to the top. Now Emo has married a man (once again f####ing her way to the top) just for power, even a fan of hers that I spoke to saw it as low and degrading. She married Doom in Old Man Logan and yet she has a lover on the side.

    As for your last sentence, lol I would do it in real life too I don’t care, but even Kais agrees with me that you can’t say any negative shit about this garbage because you get attacked and that is why I said I have the balls to say what everybody else wants to say but can’t. Like you said it is the internet and once I turn off the computer all of you cease to exist.

    The only reason I commented here was because I disagree with this post. Christy has a right to her opinion. “Finally, Christy Marx is wrong about Emma Frost.” bullshit what makes her so wrong and the person who made this post so right? She gave her opinion and the person who disagreed has his/hers and I have given mine.

    So in conclusion Christy Marx isn’t wrong, hell even I would say Emo was created not to be a slut but eye candy. But like Lady Death she became something else. I showed my eldest niece some pictures of the White Queen and there was a surprised look on her face and she said “That’s all she wears?” I said most of the time and she made a disgusted face and said “That’s nasty.”

    Now will you attack a child because she doesn’t agree with you? Will you go and copy and paste some of my sentences because you don’t agree with me again? You did it to Kais so it wouldn’t surprise me if you did it again, I’ve obviously struck a nerve.

    But if you do reply to me, trying to explain why Emo is a saint and try to change my mind I will not replying any time soon. I only visit this site to have a laugh every now and then. and I got nothing against you Khino, again I was just giving my two cents on this no good silicone, **edited**, piece of shit that has replaced Emma Frost.

    • Aimee

      While I usually don’t have to worry about vulgar words popping up on the site, I took some out in your post and hashed some F-words. While swearing is allowed on the site, excessive swearing is not.

      Thanks for your input!

    • Khino

      First of all, I’d like to say that I only use this “copy and paste” method as a way to organize my own thoughts and to make it clear as to what part of a person’s post I’m replying to.

      “Khino I respect your opinion and will not force you to dislike the White
      Queen…”

      That’s good, I respect yours also.

      “And if I said she f###ed her way to the top with Cyclops was because she
      is now head mistress of Xavier’s institute is she not? I have not been
      keeping that much track, because everything went to shit once Grant
      Morrison got his hands on the X-men. What I mean by whoring around is again her getting involve with a
      married man. I don’t give a damn if you see it as problematic, that is
      not my mentality but an OPINION. ”

      She actually isn’t headmistress anymore. Wolverine took a part of the team back to the school, Emma stayed on Utopia and is the one bankrolling it ever since.

      But during the time she was headmistress, she was in that position because she was not only the one who rebuilt the Institute, but also the only one there who had experience with being at the head of a school. I don’t remember seeing her leading the X-Men, that’s not her position, just the school.

      Also, I never said you can’t have your opinion, please don’t act like I’m repressing you or anything.

      “As for Storm, she married a man she loved and I doubt he was with anyone
      at the time. That’s like saying Kate Middleton f##### her way to the
      top. Now Emo has married a man (once again f####ing her way to the top)
      just for power, even a fan of hers that I spoke to saw it as low and
      degrading. She married Doom in Old Man Logan and yet she has a lover on
      the side.”

      Upon restoring Emma’s shattered diamond body, Jean told Beast that she (Emma) was genuinely in love with Scott. At the time, Jean had the phoenix force, which can see through lies, which means that’s a 100% sure affirmation. It wasn’t for power.
      And of course Storm married her way to the top. That’s not a bad thing, but, being in love or not, she still benefitted from her marriage. Would Storm be a queen if she wasn’t married to Black Panther? What has she done for Wakanda so far? She has a title without doing absolutely nothing for it, that’s what sleeping to the top is.

      Emma has been the headmistress of a school ever since her very first appearance. That’s why she became headmistress of the Institute, no one besides her and Xavier have that kind of experience (and also the needed documents to run a school, though I doubt that would be a problem in the comics world). So yeah, Emma could’ve been headmistress with or without Cyclops. And like I said she’s constantly bankrolling whatever operation the X-Men are running for a decade now, so she’s actually doing something to justify her position.

      About Old Man Logan, she was married to Black Bolt, in an effort to bring mutants and inhumans together for a better chance of survival. They both agreed, and they both were benefitting from it, it was a symbolical marriage between the two races. I don’t really remember about a second lover, but that still doesn’t qualify as sleeping to the top.

      “As for your last sentence, lol I would do it in real life too I don’t
      care, but even Kais agrees with me that you can’t say any negative shit
      about this garbage because you get attacked and that is why I said I
      have the balls to say what everybody else wants to say but can’t. ”

      Neither of you got attacked as far as I know, unless you consider someone replying to your post an attack. You have the right to come here and post your opinion, I have the right to disagree and post a rebutal if I want to. And reading back, my post doesn’t seem half as aggressive as yours, you sound like you want to be attacked.

      “The only reason I commented here was because I disagree with this post.
      Christy has a right to her opinion. “Finally, Christy Marx is wrong
      about Emma Frost.” bullshit what makes her so wrong and the person who
      made this post so right?”

      The fact that the person who made this post is at least trying to back up her opinion with something other than an offhanded comment? The fact that Christy rage-quit the franchise after the Jean/Scott relationship came to an end and thus was satisfied to label Emma an slut rather than taking in consideration everything else the character has gone through before and after?

      Aimee (the person who wrote this article, by the way) is simply stating her opinion. She has the right to think Christy’s wrong, just like you can have your opinion. Nowhere in her post you see her saying that everybody should agree with her. Unlike Christy, who was presumptuous enough to say that “She certainly has nothing to offer a girl reader, or any reader looking for something other than a fanboy fantasy”. She is basically saying “if they’re not pervs, or if they’re women, they’re going to agree with me”. Last time I checked, I’m not a perv and I think Emma is one of the most interesting characters in comics.

      Look, you talk a lot about having your own opinion and how it’s your right to think differently. You’re right. And that’s why people can only be wrong on their opinion when their opinion is that everybody agrees with them. Christy Marx is definetly wrong, not because of her opinion that Emma’s a slut, she has the right to think whatever she wants, but because of her categorical affirmation that Emma has nothing to offer to anyone but that segment of the fanbase.

      “I showed my eldest niece some pictures of the White Queen and there was a
      surprised look on her face and she said “That’s all she wears?” I said
      most of the time and she made a disgusted face and said “That’s nasty.”"

      … which says nothing. You know, the one thing I have agreed with you was that Emma’s outfits are sometimes incompatible with her primary role as a teacher, but I also said why I think that’s her situation… Have you tried showing some pictures of Red Sonja or Psylocke to your niece? The only way the conversation won’t go the same is if you actually try to explain what the characters are about.
      And by the way, Emma’s outfits have mostly been variations of the one she used on Astonishing X-Men (it’s the one they’re using on the Marvel Heroes MMORPG, if you’re interested), which only shows her midriff and some cleavage, which makes your “most of the time” not really accurate. (This is not an attack to you or your opinion, but some opinions are born out of lack or misleading information, so I’m just pointing that out).

      … why would you show your niece pictures of a character you don’t even like, anyway? It’s not like her reaction was unexpected, since we’re talking about an industry that’s famous for having women depicted in sexy costumes and poses. Most of the women readers I know either don’t care that much for how characters are drawn (what matters to them is characterization) or find that sexy behaviour a positive quality on females in general.

      “Now will you attack a child because she doesn’t agree with you? Will you
      go and copy and paste some of my sentences because you don’t agree with
      me again? You did it to Kais so it wouldn’t surprise me if you did it
      again, I’ve obviously struck a nerve.”

      I won’t attack a child or anyone for disagreeing with me on a fictional character. You’re taking it to heart, I haven’t attacked you.
      The funny thing is that your niece does agree with me, on this case, I said Marvel goes a bit overboard with Emma’s costumes sometimes. And I don’t think that your niece’s view even counts as an opinion, since it’s completely based on Emma’s looks and whatever you told her. And I’m sure you didn’t mention that Emma is the only woman in the X-Men who has had a consistent job ever since her very first appearance, which for some women I know puts her above Jean or Storm as far as examples go. Emma is strong as a woman first, as a hero second, which is not common in superhero comics. And that’s of course my opinion.

      As I said at the beginning of my post, this is the way I like to reply people. If it bothers you, that’s too bad, but that’s how I’ll keep responding when I have a lot to write.
      I replied to Kais because his first post gave me the impression he was talking to me (with him mentioning Madelyne and Gambit), and we had a friendly discussion. I replied to yours because, I don’t know, I felt like it. It was more for the role model part, which I thought was worth discussing. Disagreeing with someone is different from attacking.

      And frankly, struck a nerve? You’re the one constantly saying you have the right to have an opinion and acting like there are people attacking you, when there obviously aren’t.

      “But if you do reply to me, trying to explain why Emo is a saint and try
      to change my mind I will not replying any time soon. I only visit this
      site to have a laugh every now and then. and I got nothing against you
      Khino, again I was just giving my two cents on this no good silicone,
      **edited**, piece of shit that has replaced Emma Frost.”

      Oh please. I’m replying this time because I felt the conversation wasn’t over, but don’t worry, that’s probably going to be the last, as you obviously don’t want a discussion. I never tried to change your mind, but there’s a difference between having an opinion and being stubborn when there are facts in front of you, contradicting what you’re saying, which is the case for the “sleep her way to the top” nonsense. I was trying to clarify something to someone who’s obviously not following the current continuity, but you’re obviously satisfied with what you already know.
      Also, you’re not even reading my post if you think I said anything about Emma being a saint.

  • Orchid

    Essay Writer, although you did a good job on the essay I have to say you
    failed to mention why Christy thinks Emma is a slut. Instead you chose
    to talk about Emma’s revealing outfits and perhaps that is why you
    thought Christy was calling Emma a slut, because of what she wears.
    After all she does call her a “fanboy fantasy.” But honestly, it seems
    to me that Christy Marx is calling her a slut not because of what she
    wears but because she took advantage of a vulnerable, married man who
    was having marital problems. And I agree with her, she is a slut, I am
    not a feminist and I am not afraid to call out a slut when I see one. If
    a woman caught her husband cheating do you think she wouldn’t call the
    other woman a slut? You don’t think she would have every right to if the
    woman knew the man was married and didn’t respect? And the man of
    course would be an asshole. Therefore Scott is an asshole and Emma is a
    slut. What I find hard to believe is that you go on to say: It’s also
    irrational to call

    Emma a slut because of the way she dresses. As Emma
    said in “Classic X-Men” #34, it cheapens them and not her.

    I agree that women should not be called sluts because of the way they
    dress but saying that it cheapens us, human beings, to call a stupid,
    comic book character a slut is even more irrational. It’s like saying
    that we don’t have any power to speak our minds but someone who is
    fictional does. And although Emma makes a good point in the second comic
    strip, the one where she has a constipated look on her face, about
    using sexism against men, it doesn’t always work. Powergirl from the DC
    comics said something similar when some characters asked her about her
    window cleavage. Some feminist still weren’t convinced and different
    artist had to come in an adjust her outfit. You also posted a picture of
    what you considered degrading Well wouldn’t you consider this sexist
    and degrading?

    If I had kids I wouldn’t want them attending Xavier Institute if the
    teachers wear this. If she wants to wear it to fight crime then she can.
    If she has a wardrobe malfunction she can just tell the people who see
    her breast hanging out or ass that “It cheapens you not me.” :) I must
    disagree with you when you say “she is a strong, confident character
    with awesome dialogue and is quite identifiable for anyone.” You can
    think she is and you can even say these images above aren’t sexist and
    degrading, that is your right. But I honestly don’t see her as
    confident. If she had confidence she wouldn’t have been insecure enough
    to get plastic surgery. When someone gets plastic surgery it is because
    they are insecure about the way they look. I think her dialogue is
    boring and stupid. Her excessive use of darling is annoying and to quote
    Smon Cowell “Just bores me to tears.” The fact that she keeps talking
    shit about Jean Grey, who is dead and has been dead for quite awhile, is
    as low as you can get and only shows just how insecure she is if she
    keeps talking ill about someone who died. “This will only be the third
    or so time you’ve had to bury her. It must
    be getting rather tedious, Scott dear. These reruns of your grief.” Emma
    Frost, New X-Men #154. That right there is messed up and
    saying that she ranks lower than a corpse is disrespectful and would get
    your ass kicked here. It also shows she lacks confidence if she thinks
    she ranks lower than a woman who is dead. A woman who gave her Scott
    Summers and saved her ass when one of the Cuckoos shattered her diamond
    form, saved her from the Phoenix who was practically frying her, and
    told her to prepare when it came to Hope Summers. I can’t identify with
    her but I do agree that some woman may, as superficial as she may be.
    Again like her because it is your right but I am gonna have to agree
    with Christy Marx here, sorry. Emma Frost didn’t even respect that Jean
    had barely died, she went to the funeral, not to pay her respects but to
    ask Scott to run the school together. That is low, screwed up and
    slutty of her. Anyways I just thought I would point out that you did
    very good in your essay, even though I don’t agree with you, you
    defended what you believe in but failed to address the real issue as to
    why Christy thinks she is a slut. She even said it herself, why she
    thinks she is a slut. But then again you can’t justify adultery can you?
    And to the people here I do not wish to start a conversation or debate
    with you, I am talking to the ESSAY WRITER so respect that fact and
    don’t try talking to me as I will not respond to you. I would like to
    point out that I don’t believe in double standard, Jean was wrong too
    because of what happened with Logan, but I like to call that poetic
    justice. Scott did it to Madelyne and Jean did it to him. Scott also did
    it to Jean and so they are even and I am sure he will do it to Emma,
    once a cheater always a cheater. One last thing, Christy was asked to
    give her view and she did. It wasn’t what you expected but she gave her
    opinion nonetheless and we cannot tell her what she can or can’t say as
    this is a free country and we do not pay her bills, put food on her
    table or provide her with shelter. This character has nothing to offer
    me and I am a female reader, but I hope she continues to offer you more,
    essay writer. Goodbye.

    • Orchid

      The images I had copied and pasted did not appear. Here they are. Hope they appear.

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